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Forum:Sujestas (braien)
Parolas Wipeouts / He wiped out -- Un elimina / El ia es eliminada? O cisa vacua / el ia es vacuida? En fato esta para plu bon a me ca "elimina", personal. *En me dialeto de engles, "to wipe out" es transitiva, con la sinifia "destrui completa (un cosa)" e metafor "vinse completa (un person)". "Elimina" pare plu prosima a esta ca "vacui". On vacui un contenador o un sala. Simon *Lo es ance serta en me dialeto de engles (transitiva per "destrui completa") ma me ia pensa sur la surfores e la "scetores", cuando los perde la controla de se aparato. Me ia demanda a me si on ta ave alga sujestas per descrive la ata, an plu bon si on ave un metodo diverti e "depintin". Lo es fasil a dise, "los ia xoca" ma acel no catura vera la senti. *Me no es fluente en la jergo de surfores, ma la interede indica ce "he wiped out" sinifia ce el ia cade de sur se plance, no ce du persones ia xoca. Per depinti la idea de cade, nos ave "rola", "tropeza", "volta". "El ia es eliminada" pare reteni bon la metafor. Me no vide vera la atrae de "vacui": "he became empty"? Simon **Me ia pensa sur "he was erased" como frase colorosa, ma cisa la no es fasil comprendable. E per "xoca", me veni de vide ce lo es definida como verbo transitiva, ma no lo no ta pote es ance nontransitiva? On dise frecuente "the plane crashed" per esemplo, sin spesifa la ojeto...an tal, me acorda ce "eliminada" catura un senti de la esperia. "Fali" ce jorj ia sujesta es ance bon per un parola plu comica / min perilosa. Brian **La disionario no ia es sufisinte clar sur "vacui". La cosa cual on vacui es la contenador, no la contenida. "El ia es vacuida" ia es noncomprendable per me. Sur "xoca", on pote serta dise "la avion ia xoca"; la ojeto es nonespresada ma semantical lo esiste ancora; otra esemplos de esta fenomeno es "come" en "nos va come", o "vide" en la esclama "vide!". "Fali" es bon, ma lo no pare sufisinte esata, car un scetor o surfor pote fali en otra modos ca cade. (Divertinte, "fali" es la parola esperanto per "cade".) Simon *me sujeste "fali". jorj Me ta vole limpi esta sesion, alora si on ta pote dise a me cual cosas asi me debe limpi / sutrae, lo ta es aidosa! ;-) Brian *Tu pote sutrae la discutes de "staggering", "tabloid", "airlift", e "durable". Jorj, esce tu ta dona tu deside sur "veto" e "ration", per favore? Simon To veto: me demanda a me si "rejeta" catura sufisinte la sinifia legal e political *Cisa "direto de rejeta" e "usa se direto de rejeta". O nos ta pote adota la parola "veto" (como un nom), cual es estrema internasional. Simon *Me ia encontra un frase en engles cual ia dise, "The party rejected the veto of the president," cual ia deveni: la partito ia rejeta la rejeta de la presidente, cual pare no catura la esense de la situa. Brian *Vera. Ma on debe dise "la rejeta par la presidente" per no pare parla sur un presidente ci es rejetada. "La partito ia refusa la rejeta par la presidente" pare relativa clar. Ma me pensa ce nos nesesa ajunta "veto", como un terma tecnical, clar definida e internasional. Simon **Me vide ce algun, e me ance, pote fali a la confusa si on usa sola "par" en esta caso. On pote pensa ce la partito ia usa se presidente per refusa la rejeta. A tal me sujesta usa "de par": "La partito ia refusa la rejeta de par la presidente"Andrey **Simon, cual tu pensa sur introdui la preposada esperantin "far" a LFN con la sensa de "de par"? Me-mesma crede ce tal preposada con sensa de ator ta es multe oportun. Andrey "To ration" : a veses me no es serta ce "divide" catura la sensa de esta, "to ration" es plu ca divide simple, lo es con un sensa curante e seria. Tota la linguas de fonte ave "rasiona" o alga cosa como esta...me interesa en vos opinas, si o no, etc. *Me acorda per "rasiona". Simon *comparti; distribui egal jorj *Per me, me opina ce en ambos comparti e distribui egal la sinifia de "to ration" manca. "To ration" porta sinifias de un situa difisil, seria o curante, an alga cosa cual es fada contra la desiras de la persones, no simple un comparti o un distribui egal. Brian *Vera. "To ration" es plu ca "to share out" o "to divide equally", e espresas como "ration book" e "cartilla de racionamiento" es difisil per tradui sin lo. Per me, la idea xef de "to ration" es ce la materia no abunda e la partes distribuida no es grande. Simon me gusta la ajunta de "veto" e "rasiona". jorj Demandas Pote / "might" / "can" / "could": *Prima, on debe reconose la du sinifias diferente de "could" en engles. Lo pote es o la tempo pasada o la tempo ipotesal de "can": "was able to" o "would be able to". Simon *Si, cisa me debe crea un lista de la sinifias esata e alora on pote trova traduis per la frases, on ave un poca de ambigua. Me ia pote core "I could have run" o simple "I was able to run"? *Esta es mera la tempo pasada de "pote": "I was able to run", "I could run". Simon Me pote core "I can (could) run"? *Lo sinifia "I can run". Per "I could run (if I needed to)", nos usa "me ta pote core". Simon Me ta pote core "I might run" o simple "I would be able to run"? *Lo sinifia "I would be able to run", "I could run". Cisa lo sinifia ance "I might run", ma "might" ave sinifias sutil diversa, e me no pote judi lo sin un frase completa. En "I might (go for a) run tomorrow morning if the weather's good", "might" presenta un idea, un sujesta, e me ta usa "cisa" sin "pote": "me ta fa cisa un core a la matina doman si la clima es bon". Ma en alga frases, probable on ave poca difere entre "could" e "might": "we might win if we play well". Simon Me interesa en vos sujestas per dise: "I might have known"? *En pasa, un coreti minor: Nos sujestas es interesante a tu, donce los interesa. Tu es interesada sur los (plu bon ca "en los"). Simon **Grasias. :-) *"I might have known" es alga idiomal. Lo sinifia vera "I could/should have predicted that": "me ia debe predise". O si tu vole reteni la idea de "sabe", cisa "me ia debe ja sabe" vade bon. Simon La demanda de como on dise "could have" es interesante. Esta es un caso de la problem plu jeneral de indica la tempo de la verbo du en un cadena de verbos: "I hope to have finished before then", "I hate travelling, but I want to have arrived". On pote usa "ja": "me espera fini ja ante alora", "me odia viaja, ma me desira ariva ja"; ma per claria masima, on usa "ce": "me espera ce me va fini ante alora", "me odia viaja, ma ma desira ce me ia ariva". (Esta reporta nos a tu sujesta de "ia va", no?) Simon Lo es un demanda interesante. La razona ce me ia demanda es car me ia atenta tradui alga liricas per diverti. I wish I knew what you were looking for I might have known what you would find (Per los ci es interesada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6jhpaX7fNQ Me gusta la canta.) *En la canta, "I might have known" sinifia "I would perhaps have known". La tradui leteral es "me ia ta sabe cisa lo cual tu va trova". (Me usa "va trova", no "ta trova", car "would find" es asi la tempo pasada de "will find".) A su es un tradui min leteral ma cual conveni a la ritmo: Simon Si me ia sabe lo cual tu ia xerc' Me ia ta sabe ja la trov' En la linguas romanica, on usa la ipotesal con "pote" per dise alga cosa cual prosimi "might." Franses ave "pourrais" (pouvoir en la moda dependente), espaniol usa "podria" (poder en la moda dependente), donce me ia pensa sur "me ta pote" como es posible la tradui, ma lo es razonante ce lo sinifia xef "I would be able". E acel linguas usa ance acel per "might have known" como "je pourrais avoir sû" -- ma esta construi no esiste per nos. Me ia pensa sur, "cual si" on ta pote usa "ave" ante un verbo per dise la mesma cosa (Me ia pote ave sabe -- "I could have known") o considerante ce nos no ave verbos conjugada on ta pote justi posible un verbo nova per "might" per la idea de permisa o nonsertia, o on ta pote usa "ta" con "cisa" ("Me ta sabe cisa" "I might know (in the future)" o "Me ia ta sabe cisa" per "I would have maybe known" (ma me no es serta ce esta catura esata la sensa de permisa o nonsertia, ma cisa.) *"Me ta pote" ave o la sinifia leteral "I would be able", o la sinifia pico idiomal "I can, but I won't". Vide la esemplo "nos ta pote aida" su "pote" en la disionario. Me pensa ce "cisa" catura la idea de "might" en la canta. Simon *"Ave" no es clar per indica la pasada. "Ia" ta es la bon parola, si la gramatica ta permete lo ("me ia pote ia sabe"). Simon E per "could have", si, on ave alga difisiles. Me ia pensa ance sur la "ia va / va ia" ce nos ia discuta, e alora sur estende la usa de me parola proposada "eve" con pote, como "me ia pote eve sabe." An tal, lo va es un cosa interesante sur cual a pensa tra la fin de semana. Perfect marker "eve" My apologies for English; I do feel it will be much easier to explain using it. Firstly, I know, accept and understand that Jorj is reluctant to add to the grammar of LFN. However, I have been experimenting with a special perfect marker "eve" in my free time, which I feel has some nice qualities and thought I would maybe broach the idea. Currently, elefen uses "ja" ("already") in many constructs to express the idea of completing something in a specified tense, and this works fairly well, but not without some ambiguity: *"Cuando tu ia encontra nos, nos ia come ja" "When you met us, we had already eaten." and/or "When you met us, we were already eating." *"Sempre cuando me ateni la fini de un capitol, me oblida ja la titulo." "Whenever I reach the end of a chapter, I've already forgotten the title." *"Si tu reveni doman, me va core ja" "If you return tomorrow, I will run already." ("Have run" is implied) also "If you return tomorrow, I will be running already." *NOT VALID: "Cuando te va telefoni me, me va ia parti" "When you call me, I will have left" Elefen also used "ia ta" to express "would have", which mixes the generally never-mixed tense markers "ia" (the past) and "ta" (the hypothetical) to achieve a similar result. But if you can mix them in this one situation, it would seem a logical conclusion that you could also mix others? But no, in general we discourage this. The languages that do have perfect markers generally have them as auxiliaries of "to have" or "to be." In elefen this is not quite possible because verbs do not generally change form. "eve" would be an additional special word in elefen. It would mark completion of the verb in the tense specified, and would immediately precede the verb it is applying to, but after the tense marker (thus: me ia eve parla, for example.) What I have found by using it: #It permits the special auxilary tense words "ia", "ta" and "va" to remain completely segregated. If something occurred in the past, use "ia." If something is hypothetical -- past or future -- use "ta." If something is going to happen in the future, use "va." This is a very logically consistent rule and very easy to remember. #It has a similar, pleasant sound that recalls "ave", which is a very logical word to relate to for this purpose, and alludes nicely to the usage of other Romance languages. #It permits greater precision in communication when referring to actions to emphasize their completed nature. If you were to say, "Cuando tu va veni asi, me va eve parti", one knows that the act of "parti" is completed / finished, i.e. not a continuous act. Parti is not the best example because it is not typically something you are in the middle of doing, but in the previously mentioned example, "Si tu reveni doman, me va eve core" (If you return tomorrow, I will have run), one would know that the act of running is a finished action, not a continuous one. Contrast this with "me va core ja" which could mean "have run" as an idiomatic construction or "will be running already" -- similarly for the past tense, "...nos ia come ja" could mean "we ate already" or "we were eating already." #It would also be used with "ta" for "would have," meaning no more mixing of "ia ta", and the elimination of the one exception to the rule of mixing the special tense markers. "Me ta eve es un bon pape" I would have made a good pope. #It forever removes the discussion of marking the perfect tense in these forum threads. ;-) But on a serious note, I do believe this elevates the precision of elefen in a very nice and simple way, which might be nice from legal perspectives (I do hold out hope for something like adoption by the EU or other intranational orgs, yes, I am a an optimist.) #An interesting future discussion would be whether or not to permit the use of "eve" in the present. I could imagine a use whereby someone would use it to emphasize the current completed sense of an act, "me eve parla!" I have spoken! But -- if you do not like this, don't let it color the discussion on the other points mentioned, it is just a passing thought and not really the purpose of this section. If ultimately this is not liked, that is fine and I understand, and I will just add it permanently (I really do like it) to my set of experiments. However, it does seem like an interesting opportunity, to me, that I should mention. *Esta es interesante. Me va comenta sola ce nos pote ja espresa "we were already eating" e "I will be running already" par dise "nos ia es ja comente" e "me va es ja corente". En otra parolas, elefen permete distingui la du casos par indica ce la ata no es completa. Simon Esperimentas Si on vole vide a alga tempo me scrives (me fa lo per pratica e esperimenta), on pote vide los asi: https://www.reddit.com/r/elefa/ Lia tempora sur Esperanto Cuando me ia leje esta paje ueb, me ia pensa ce cisa alga persones asi ta trova lo interesante, lo parteni a Esperanto ma la idea de crea un comunia es un idea comun a tota linguas construida, me pensa: https://whistlinginthewind.org/2016/06/08/my-life-as-an-esperanto-volunteer/ *Grasias per la lia, Brian. Lo cual la autor descrive es vera, incluinte la fato ce persones estra la comunia de un lingua construida refusa comun comprende ce (e como) un tal lingua pote opera bon. Me mesma ia esperia la fenomeno de parla sola esperanto tra alga semanas; me ia trova ce pos me reveni a la vive dial, engles ia senti como un lingua stranjer per alga oras :-) Simon *Me ia trova la article a es multe interesante (e tu notas), me no ia sabe ce Esperanto ave un tal nivel de organiza. Imajina la futur... Ante cuando elefen concista la mundo, me pote imajina un futur do alga persones usa alga cortis, serta en parla. Esta no es un colie de sujestas (donce, on no debe reata), ma sola un colie de imajinas / juas diverti per me. Brimlar2 *La come de matina La cometina **o "comatina"? jorj **Si, me gusta ance acel, lo es bela Brian *La come de sera La comesera *Ante aora aa *On oia, "La sds" per la sentro de site (como "CBD") *On oia, "Me i'ave..." en cuando parlante rapida *On oia, "Me i'es..." en cuando parlante rapida *'mub' o mb per "mera un broma" / "mera bromante" (en engles: "just kidding" o "only joking", a veses videda en la cortis "jk", "j/k", "JK" etc) **o posible mb ("mera bromante"). nota ce, en lfn, cortis es scriveda con leteras minor. jorj **O "mbm" (me broma mera). Simon *Esc'el en media de core? nota ce on pote usa l' e d' en parla rapida (o an en scrive) ante un parola cual comensa con un vocal, si tu vole. me pensa ce s' (per se) es ance oce. e posible i', como tu sujeste a supra. en poesia, on pote cade un vocal final si la parola seguente comensa con un vocal, spesial si la parola prima es un determinante. nos usa la formas plen per articles en la vici e en la disionario per es clar e "ofisial". :o) ma tu ideas es multe divertinte! jorj *Bon a sabe sur la oportun (cuando en parla) de usa alga metodos como aceles! Si, lo es divertinte, grasias. ;-) Brian tempos Me fa un folia de tempos de verbos usante pasea per pratica, lo es un de la razonas perce me demanda la demanda a supra. (lia: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ufyztgXi6WIumpyeH1hwIdULhkvxXnUrPeS58NSo6q8/edit?usp=sharing) Brimlar2